Jon Wiener: From The Nation journal, that is Begin Making Sense. I’m Jon Wiener. Later within the present: The Individuals who fought in World Battle II have been referred to as “the best era,” however historian David Nasaw argues that it’s extra applicable to treat them as “the wounded era.” He’ll clarify, later within the present. However first: Home Republicans defied Trump on releasing the Epstein information, and he conceded defeat. John Nichols has our evaluation – in a minute.
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We’re nonetheless excited about the Home vote on Tuesday to launch the Epstein information. It was nearly unanimous – after practically a yr of Trump doing every part he might to forestall that vote. For remark and evaluation, we flip to John Nichols. After all, he’s govt editor of The Nation. John, welcome again,
John Nichols: Jon, it’s nice to be with you. Who would’ve thought that we’d be devoting our time to speaking about this?
JW: [LAUGHTER] Trump caved on Sunday night time after studying that greater than 100 Republican Home members have been ready to vote in opposition to him and in favor of releasing the information. As much as that time, Home Republicans had achieved just about every part Trump wished since he took workplace final January. I’ve been excited about what modified over the weekend to result in this dramatic defeat of Trump, not by the hands of the Democrats, however by the hands of the Home Republicans.
I feel it started within the Senate when these eight Democrats joined Republicans and voted to finish the federal government shutdown. In the meantime, within the Home, speaker Mike Johnson had been refusing to convene the Home for greater than a month to keep away from taking over the Epstein information. However now the Home needed to convene — to vote for the short-term finances that the Senate was sending them. And as soon as they got here again to work, a few Republicans joined Democrats in signing that discharge petition to pressure a vote on releasing the Epstein information, and much more Republicans mentioned they’d vote sure. So what started as a Democratic give up to Trump on the shutdown ended up as a Democratic triumph pushing home Republicans to defy their president on the Epstein information. Is that this the best way you see it? Am I lacking one thing right here?
JN: Effectively, you’re a really cynical man, Jon. Clearly you’re seeing all these calculations and issues happening, though I sort of had the identical sense you had. However the one place the place I might disagree with you is that you just mentioned, nicely, Trump came upon that as many as 100 Republicans have been going to vote in opposition to him. Clearly, that bothered him — as a result of Donald Trump desires to steer the parade, and if he sees the parade going one other route, what does Donald Trump do? He runs as quick as he can to get in entrance of it.
However I don’t assume it was 100 Republicans. I feel it was one. I feel it was Marjorie Taylor Greene, doing these interviews. She didn’t blink, and that’s the fascinating factor. He referred to as her a traitor. He mainly learn her out of the occasion. And she or he went proper again on and stored doing extra of these interviews, extra of these statements. After Trump, she could be the best communicator within the Republican occasion, and she or he was going in opposition to him. He can have all these different Republicans saying issues. I feel when he noticed her going repeatedly on TV being completely unblinking in her stance on the Epstein information, that, I feel he felt, ‘wow, I’ve acquired an issue.’ When Donald Trump has an issue, he tries to eliminate it. He initially tried to eliminate it by studying Inexperienced out of the occasion. When that didn’t work, he ran to the entrance of the parade.
JW: I’ve one easy query about these occasions: these paperwork, the Epstein information, are underneath Trump’s management within the Justice Division. He might himself organize them launched and keep away from this entire vote. Isn’t it worse for Trump to have each Republican within the Home voting? The way in which to get in entrance of the parade is to get in entrance of the parade, and launch the paperwork, it appears to me.
JN: The query turns into, will these paperwork be launched? You recognize what I’m saying?
JW: Yeah.
JN: If certainly it turns into a PR drawback, proper? That you simply’ve acquired Marjorie Taylor Inexperienced doing what she’s doing, acquired different Republicans saying, we’re going to interrupt with the man, it’s clear you’re going to lose a vote. Is it higher to say, ‘yeah, go forward, vote. If you happen to vote unanimously to launch him, that’s wonderful by me. I’m all good with that.’ Is it higher to have mentioned that very publicly after which have maybe, and I don’t know if this can occur, however maybe the Senate run into some conundrums on this regard, have maybe the Lawyer Common discover challenges with releasing every part, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
I discover myself in a really bizarre place right here, Jon, of quoting Marjorie Taylor Greene. She mentioned right this moment at a press convention the place she appeared with most of the folks we ought to be speaking concerning the very brave younger girls who stored this concern on the entrance burner. She mentioned, ‘this isn’t the top. That is just the start.’ I feel there’s nonetheless plenty of wrangling on this. I believe Donald Trump is aware of there’s going to be plenty of wrangling and felt that this was a great way to get as far forward of it as he might, and but there nonetheless could also be fairly a little bit of wrestle with reference to what comes out. And by the best way, it is a problem for him. It’s additionally a problem for some Democrats, so there’s plenty of political maneuvering which may but be seen on this.
JW: Yeah. I used to be fascinated to see in The Washington Publish, they quoted an unnamed White Home official who mentioned, ‘Trump will survive this storm,’ and so they in contrast it to cite his ‘being shot in an assassination try.’ I assumed, wow, wow. Is the Home vote on releasing the Epstein information actually like an assassination try? They assume this, some folks over there at the least assume that is actually large.
JN: Effectively, the Trump White Home, the president and others, have tried very, very arduous to not have this occur, proper?
JW: Yeah.
JN: They actually, historians are going to have a look at this era in time, and so they’re going to say, ‘you’re kidding me,’ proper? US Home of Representatives went on hiatus for months in very, very crucial instances on the planet apparently, since you didn’t need to seat some newly elected member of the home from Arizona who would tip the steadiness on the Epstein file debate. That’s weird.
Donald Trump, since about mid-October, has had a very awful time of it politically. The No King’s demonstrations have been enormous. They’re underneath coated, underneath understood by a lot of our media. However the truth is that when folks in small cities and small cities and concrete areas throughout this nation come out within the hundreds of thousands to protest in opposition to the sitting president, that’s not good. After which when you’ve gotten a collection of elections as you probably did on November 4th throughout the nation in city, rural, north, south, east, west, and each place, the Republican Social gathering loses every part? That’s not good. And whenever you’ve been working to maintain one concern from arising and taking middle stage for a really, very very long time, and it arises, takes middle stage and is actually, breathlessly coated by all of the networks, that’s not good.
As Barbara Boxer, the previous senator from California mentioned, I feel we are going to see this as the purpose at which the threads began to come back aside. It’s not about the entire of politics. It’s about Trump’s management over the Republican occasion.
JW: Yeah. Let me level to a few different circumstances that add to that image. The Senate Republicans additionally, along with the Home Republicans defying him on the information, the Senate Republicans on the finances refused repeatedly to do what he was telling them to do, which was abolished the filibuster. So you may simply vote for the finances. Then there can be a Republican majority and Trump would hope they’d do no matter he wished them to do. The Senate Republicans refused to do what Trump advised them repeatedly and in public to do, and as an alternative recruited eight Democrats.
And within the state legislatures, there’ve been some fascinating developments that haven’t gotten as a lot consideration–over Trump’s calls for that they proceed to gerrymander and create extra Republican Home seats so the Republicans received’t lose management of the Home subsequent yr. Texas, in fact, created 5, Missouri created yet another Republican seat, North Carolina apparently this week could create one new purple district.
However Indiana–this to me is thoughts boggling—Indiana’s Republican-dominated state legislature rejected Trump’s demand and has refused to enter a particular session to redistrict the state. Trump mentioned they might create two new Republican districts, abolishing each Democratic seat within the state of Indiana. This was regardless of JD Vance himself visiting the state twice to strain the Republican legislators to do that, and Trump himself calling on the telephone and twisting arms that means.
Indiana has been a deeply purple state our entire lifetime right here. The Republicans have a super-majority within the Indiana legislature. What’s going on in Indiana? Are you able to clarify this?
JN: I can clarify all of it, Jon. I hope I can simply carry on high of all the weather of your query. At first, for those who’re making an attempt to persuade Indiana to do something, don’t ship a man from Ohio. So the truth that JD Vance didn’t persuade Indianans of something is no surprise in any respect. That’s primary. Quantity two, the Senate on the filibuster. At what level do senators resolve that they just like the filibuster? It’s on the day once they assume they is probably not ceaselessly in cost. Earlier this yr, checked out a circumstance the place they thought they have been going to simply maintain the Senate, perhaps even develop their majority. They’re now a way more susceptible state of affairs. They’re polls from locations like Alaska the place Democrats are literally displaying viability from Ohio the place Democrats, Sharrod Brown is narrowly forward, at the least in some polling the place from Maine, the place you’re beginning to see proof that Susan Collins may very well be crushed from North Carolina the place you’ve acquired at the least a good likelihood that an excellent likelihood, I might say.
JW:An excellent likelihood, I might say.
JN: So what are we speaking about right here? We’re really speaking about all of a sudden Republican senators are considering, man, we might find yourself in a state of affairs the place we’d just like the filibuster. In order that’s quantity two.
However quantity three, that is essentially the most fascinating factor of all, since you deliver up the gerrymandering district line battle, and Trump thought that was only a positive route. You’re going to come back by means of and also you’re going to make all these states redraw and every part’s going to prove wonderful. There are actually analyses that counsel that with the California transfer with potential strikes in Maryland and a pair different states, and with the truth that in Ohio and in I imagine Missouri, you may petition onto the poll a problem to redraws.
JW: Sure. In Missouri, you’re proper. In Missouri, the Democrats are campaigning proper now to qualify –they’ve nearly sufficient signatures to qualify a referendum that may reverse the state legislature’s creating of a further Republican district.
JN: So you bought all these components, proper? After which you’ve gotten the factor that in a few of these redraws, even in Texas, they made Republican seats extra susceptible, and if there’s a sufficiently big shift, there may very well be some political challenges there. What all of it provides as much as is, sensible analysts are actually saying, that every part Trump has achieved all of this may yield a seat or so for the Republicans, not some large shift. And if that’s the case, Jon, then what we’re actually is a state of affairs the place if Democrats do nicely in 2026, all of those efforts by Donald Trump, all these efforts by Donald Trump to shake it up is not going to have labored.
That circles us round to the start of our dialog as a result of we’re actually is a state of affairs the place Republicans have to start out asking themselves, ‘how intently do I need to be aligned with Donald Trump?’ And that’s the place politics shifts.
JW: I’ve studied up on one different case in some methods much more wonderful than Indiana. Florida is a spot the place Ron DeSantis desires the state legislature–following Trump’s calls for–to gerrymander and create, they are saying, between two and 4 extra Republican districts. The Republican state legislature could be very unwilling proper now to fulfill to do that. A ballot in September discovered that solely 36% of Florida Republican voters assist redistricting now, and the Republican leaders are very apprehensive after what occurred in Virginia in New Jersey, that certainly they might lose plenty of younger folks, girls and Latinos to the Democrats, particularly in southern Florida, even Florida.
JN: Effectively, polling knowledge reveals that Trump’s numbers amongst Latinos began to go means down. In order that’s a really vital factor. Quantity two, are you aware what folks do in Florida? Transfer.
JW: They transfer.
JN: They bodily transfer from one place to a different. They do, loads, and new folks transfer in and issues like that. So gerrymandering in Florida is totally different than in different states. You are able to do it. There’s no query you are able to do it, however it may well additionally blow up on you. I’ve talked to plenty of Florida Democrats and Republicans, and so they at all times perceive it as considerably of a extra harmful sport in such a dynamic state as in comparison with states the place the strains are fairly secure as a result of folks don’t transfer as a lot. Pennsylvania is a traditional on that, and so finish result’s, I’m not shocked that there’s resistance, and each time this occurs, it’s met with a menace from Trump.
He says, ‘oh, I’m going to main the state senate chief in Indiana.’ ‘I’m attempt to get this legislator knocked out in Florida.’ Possibly he can pull that off.
However on the finish of the day, if that’s the place Donald Trump is concentrated going into 2026, the Democrats may as nicely begin to lay up the champagne, as a result of in case your opponent is obsessively simply making an attempt to punish the those that didn’t give him what he wished to attempt to shore up a comparatively shaky place anyway, if Democrats run on elementary points, as I feel plenty of ’em did on November 4th, their potential turns into a lot larger. And so what we’re now’s within the historical past of this period, I feel there’s an excellent likelihood that there’s a chapter on the October, November, December of 2025 that means that that is the place it shifted. That is the place the pivot got here, and that the potential, not the knowledge by any means, these are such unstable instances, however the potential for an actual pushback and really electoral accountability for Donald Trump turned actual.
JW: That is the place the pushback turned actual. John Nichols, learn him at thenation.com. John, thanks for speaking with us right this moment.
JN: Nice honor to be with you, Jon. Thanks a lot.
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Jon Wiener: The Individuals who fought in World Battle II have been referred to as “the best era,” however historian David Nasaw thinks it’s extra applicable to treat them as “the wounded era.” That’s the title of his new ebook about coming residence after World Battle II. David is an award-winning biographer of Andrew Carnegie, Joseph Kennedy, and William Randolph Hearst, and his most up-to-date ebook, The Final Million, is about Europe’s displaced individuals after World Battle II. It was named the Greatest Ebook of the Yr by NPR, Kirkus, Historical past Right this moment – it’s one in all my favorites, we talked about it right here. He additionally writes for The New York Occasions and The Nation. Final time he was right here, we talked about Elon Musk. David, welcome again.
David Nasaw: Thanks. Good to be right here.
JW: Your ebook is about coming residence after World Battle II, however the first 150 pages are concerning the warfare itself and about ready to be demobilized. There was plenty of ready.
DN: Yeah, there was 16.4 million servicemen and girls fought in World Battle II. On the finish of the warfare, there have been greater than 12 million, 3 quarters of them abroad. It takes plenty of ships, plenty of the logistics to get ’em again to america, so it took a very long time to get ’em again.
Considered one of my favourite components of my analysis was concerning the moms’ golf equipment — as a result of the wives of the servicemen, the moms of the servicemen’s youngsters, and the moms of the servicemen, have been outraged on the delay. And so they shaped golf equipment all around the nation, and so they petitioned and marched in entrance of their congressman’s workplace. They went to Washington. They waylaid Eisenhower, who was then chief of workers as he was giving, added a congressional investigation, and so they demanded that the boys come residence straight away in one of many uncommon cases the place public opinion and protests work.
Truman, who wished an enormous military of occupation instantly after the warfare needed to pull again. And the Battle Division determined that they couldn’t stand up to public opinion, and so they withdrew extra troopers quicker from Europe and from the Pacific than they wished to.
JW: You talked concerning the wives and the moms wanting their boys residence quick. However you additionally present there was a specific amount of apprehension on the house entrance concerning the return of husbands and sons and boyfriends.
DN: Combined with the jubilation that the warfare was over that we had received, that the fellows have been coming residence was this foreboding that they’d been taught to kill. That they had been taught to have a good time violence. That they had been in male solely models for 1, 2, 3, 4 years. And the fears have been that they have been going to deliver the warfare residence with them, and so they have been going to deliver the violence residence with them, and so they have been going to deliver this macho warrior ethos and behaviors again with them.
JW: And naturally, we all know that some, perhaps many did “deliver the warfare residence with them.” It’s what we now referred to as PTSD, Publish-Traumatic Stress Dysfunction. How was it outlined and the way was it handled after World Battle II?
DN: Actually hundreds of thousands, what number of hundreds of thousands we don’t know, of servicemen and girls got here again, indignant, depressed, anxious, full of sudden rages that they couldn’t management, unable to sleep at night time, flashbacks. They have been advised by the army and by the army medical institution that this was some type of fight fatigue. Effectively, for those who name one thing fatigue, then the remedy is relaxation and time, nevertheless it didn’t work that means. And these males, and once more, and a few girls, together with some donut dollies who had served refreshments simply off the entrance line to males in Europe, they got here again with this stress and dysfunction. What the VA and the army institution mentioned was, “look, in the event that they don’t have any wounds on their our bodies, we’ll do what we will. However you, their family members, their moms, their wives, their girlfriends, it’s important to care for these guys. It’s as much as you to make them really feel at residence and to assist them within the readjustment.”
JW: And for individuals who have been, let’s say, severely affected by fight fatigue, there have been “medical remedies.”
DN: The VA tried to make use of the most recent medical data, methods to deal with these males. There have been no medication obtainable on the time. There have been no drugs. So when relaxation didn’t assist, essentially the most severely depressed, essentially the most severely anxious, the recourse was to electroshock remedy. Electroshock remedy 80 years later may help some folks, however 80 years in the past within the infancy of electroshock remedy, it didn’t. There have been short-term alleviations of the ache and the struggling, nevertheless it didn’t final lengthy and when the fellows couldn’t get better, the subsequent step was what medical science on the time mentioned was the final resort, however the one which labored, lobotomies, and hundreds of servicemen have been lobotomized.
JW: I feel you need to simply clarify what that’s in case a number of of our listeners don’t know.
DN: Lobotomy was to chop away a part of the mind. To start with, it was achieved in surgical procedure and shortly afterwards, as a result of the variety of veterans who have been prescribed lobotomies was too nice to have a surgeon obtainable, a brand new approach was found, and that was to insert a pointed scalpel into the correct above the eyes and to scrape away a part of the mind. The consequence was a numbing and a lack of speech, a lack of bodily and psychological skill. However the traumatized have been completely sedated, and that’s what lobotomy was alleged to do.
JW: To alter keys right here and have a look at the brilliant aspect, the achievements of the return residence, in fact, the GI Invoice on the high of the record handed first in June, 1944. Historians educate it as sort of the creation of an American welfare state for veterans, notably free lifetime medical care by the Veterans Administration. The VA up up to now, had not supplied free lifetime medical care. They handled warfare wounds. However now there was actually what we’ve got to name socialized medication. The federal government ran the hospitals, the federal government employed the docs, and for those who have been a vet, you possibly can be handled. After all, there was aggregation of VA hospitals. However what along with this lifetime medical care did the GI Invoice embrace?
DN: The GI Invoice was essentially the most vital laws that was handed within the twentieth century. It created essentially the most in depth social welfare system that the world had ever seen, larger than what was the beverage plan? What was happening in England larger than what had existed in Germany earlier. It was extraordinary, nevertheless it was for veterans, and it was written in such a means that it was for white male veterans solely. White male veterans acquired particular unemployment insurance coverage for a yr. They acquired faculty tuition for 4 years or tuition and dwelling allowances to go to a vocational faculty for 4 years. They acquired mortgage ensures. If you happen to might get a mortgage out of your native financial institution, it might be assured by the federal authorities, which meant that the native financial institution was greater than prepared to offer it to you. And the federal authorities mentioned, put a cap on what the rate of interest may very well be.
The GI invoice created, and that is, I assumed it was an exaggeration, nevertheless it’s not. It created a brand new center class. It expanded the center class. It was the primary time in our historical past that people and households might leap a category from working class to center class. And that included immigrants and the youngsters of immigrants who had been unnoticed of – or needed to wrestle to get into that center class. And there have been many who mentioned that this could be step one in the direction of a social welfare program for all Individuals. Roosevelt repeated himself over and again and again. He had mentioned, we’re all on this warfare. Youngsters on the house entrance, girls who go into the factories. This can be a warfare fought not just by the boys in uniform, however by the entire nation. And there was a motion to make use of the GI Invoice as step one in the direction of a social welfare program. By no means occurred.
JW: There was one different limitation. You’ve already talked about it. Black folks have been largely excluded from plenty of the advantages. Black army veterans might get medical remedy at VA hospitals, however they have been segregated and suffered what’s politely referred to as “disparities in care and staffing.” However in some methods, it was the housing program that created the best wealth hole between white and Black veterans.
DN: Yeah, veterans, once they got here again, thought that they have been going to get mortgages. Effectively, they weren’t going to get mortgages. They have been going to get mortgage ensures. With the intention to get a assure, you needed to get a mortgage. The place’d you get the mortgage? out of your native financial institution. So that you’re a Black veteran in Mississippi. Whenever you go into your native financial institution and also you say, “I need a mortgage to purchase a home,” you’re not going to get it. If you happen to’re a Black veteran in Newark or Minneapolis, the possibilities are you’re not going to get that mortgage. If you’re a girl, a WAC, or a WAVE, or somebody who had labored within the Pink Cross, you’re not going to get a mortgage out of your native financial institution. What the mortgage ensures do from 19 – late forties by means of the fifties is that they supply the capital that’s wanted to purchase personal single-family properties.
And in america of America, exterior the highest 5%, most Individuals, the best asset they’ve is their residence. And what the federal authorities, what the VA did by means of the GI Invoice, was to offer white male veterans a house. And finally that funding, that asset turned so worthwhile that you possibly can ship your youngsters to varsity, that you possibly can have financial savings, that you possibly can purchase a second automobile to place in your storage. The revenue and wealth disparities, gender and racial disparities that had begun to shrink throughout the World Battle and somewhat bit throughout the melancholy have been exacerbated by these presents given to the white veterans. And that disparity would final for generations to come back.
JW: Considered one of my favourite components of your ebook was that the GI Invoice, you write, led to a postwar renaissance within the American arts, as a result of vets might go, to not only a faculty or vocational faculty, they might go to artwork faculty, they might research portray and music. And people who did–I imply, the record is mind-boggling: Robert Rauschenberg, Roy Lichtenstein, Ellsworth Kelly, Donald Judd, Cy Twombly, Noah Purifoy — right here in LA. Noah Purifoy is an enormous hero. He based the Watts Towers Artwork Middle. Beneath the GI Invoice, he went to Chouinard Artwork Faculty, which finally turned Cal Arts.
And Harry Belafonte!
DN: And Walter Matthau, and Tony Curtis and Tony Bennett, Paul Newman, John Coltrane, Tito Puente, Dave Brubeck. What’s most outstanding is that plenty of the instructors within the artwork faculties and the music faculties and dance and in performing have been German and Japanese European refugees from Hitler. American tradition modified dramatically due to the GI Invoice and the schooling and the instruction of their arts that the GIs acquired on coming back from abroad locations.
JW: One last item: for these of us who’re outdated, it is a ebook about our fathers. You dedicate your ebook to the reminiscence of your father. How did this private factor have an effect on your analysis and your writing and your excited about this?
DN: My father returned from Eritrea. He was a 35-year-old lawyer when he was drafted, and the Military didn’t know what to do with him. He was a Decrease East aspect and Brooklyn Jew. He began out as a driver. And when Colonel Hutter, who he drove for, was despatched to North Africa, Colonel Hutter mentioned, ‘you bought to go to Officers Candidate Faculty. That is ridiculous.’ He was shipped off to South Carolina. He turned a second lieutenant within the Medical Corps, and the subsequent factor he is aware of, he’s in Eritrea.
Think about this man goes from Brooklyn or Manhattan, to South Carolina, to Eritrea. One thing occurs in Eritrea. He’s despatched there to dismantle a hospital as a result of the American troops had moved on to Sicily after North Africa. He comes residence with a medical discharge, full medical incapacity. And an alcoholic. He smokes three to 4 packs of Fortunate Strikes a day, with a coronary heart situation.
I attempted to speak to him concerning the warfare, however like 95% of the youngsters of World Battle II veterans that I talked to, my father didn’t need to speak concerning the warfare. So I didn’t know what occurred. My father stopped consuming like different veterans, and he pulled himself collectively. However for the remainder of his life, he by no means acquired a superb night time’s sleep with out such sturdy capsules that he needed to take extra capsules to get up within the morning. And that coronary heart situation by no means acquired higher. No matter occurred in Eritrea, he died at age 61.
And since I’m a historian, I might attempt to discover out about my father’s expertise by finding out the era that he belonged to. And on daily basis I kick myself for not pushing tougher to get my father to speak to me. And since he didn’t speak to me, I needed to take heed to the voices of a era of veterans.
JW: David Nassau new ebook is The Wounded Era: Coming Dwelling After World Battle II. David, thanks for speaking with us right this moment.
DN: My pleasure. Thanks.
